Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump? + JW Songs

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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Randy » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:41 am

No Mike I didn't mean anything like that, and Dee you are exactly right. And although I'm pretty sure internet stuff really didn't appeal to Glen, Jimmy on the other hand does make appearances on the www. Personally, I thought Cowpoke, threw that line in there, in case, just in case, Jimmy saw it and wanted to reply. But I don't know that for sure.
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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Dee » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:59 pm

I took Randy's comment differently, Mike.
I understood it to mean that had GC and JW participated in their own forums on the web, then their insights and stories would have been preserved for the future; Galveston's changes in lyrics being an excellent example.
Some of their musical histories have already been lost, more will be lost as time goes by. (Jimmy is working on recording his history with the publication of his first autobiography this spring.)
It's my understanding from reading JW's forum that he does not post or answer questions. But how could he possibly find the time to do so?

Glen had mentioned years ago wanting to write another autobiography but sadly that didn't happen. Thus, the torch has been passed to these traditional forums, Glen's forums and fans here.

Fan participation is more important than ever: we are the last generation that "grew up with Glen", that watched and participated in his career as his career unfolded.
We (all members and would-be members) are the record keepers now for future generations, this is how it looks to me.
As fans we post our stories and memories of Glen. We try to reconstruct history from the "outside, in" such as Glen's political views and associations.
As I have seen by recent posts, putting together the pieces in a topic about Glen and politics is another way for fans to understand and enjoy his music and his musical choices.

Isn't it cool to see how a Trump question led to "Galveston"? Now, how would JW feel about this association? :)

Just my two cents, and I apologize to Randy for jumping in to reply to Mike.
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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Mike Joyce » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:14 pm

Cowpoke, I took a look at some of the music scores which I have of Galveston. Each one has the word WATCH instead of SEE as the lyric. Interestingly enough in my souvenir music book called "This is Glen Campbell" the word Watch in the Galveston lyrics is in bold print. It is the only word in the whole score that has been done that way. This implies to me that it has been changed so it matches Glen's recorded version. I also noticed By the Time I get to Phoenix is copyrighted to Johnny Rivers Music 1967. Of course that changes in later copies of the score. In my Piano score book it is SOSANA MUSIC INC Renewed copyright 1995. What is clear is that in each copy the lyric is "Time and time ----- I told her so". Perhaps proof readers make these changes based on what they hear on the record and make it match. (Who knows)
Personally I feel Glen has done the right thing in that change, as otherwise you would have SEE your SEA birds flying which feels like a bit of a duplication in the line. Also WATCH gives the stronger impression of being away from something longed for.
In Phoenix I feel stating the word AGAIN comes across as harsh and unforgiving where's Glen's finish holds on to the regret of leaving, no matter how bitter he was feeling. The song was about a love lost, not an argument won.

Hi Randy, I am not sure about the point you were making. If it's that Cowpoke's comments seem to imply that Glen and Jimmy didn't co-operate, I am sure that isn't the intention, not that I'm trying to speak for Cowpoke here. There is no doubt Jimmy and Glen did work well together. Reunion is a prime example of that. Glen would often select a more simplified chord progression in a song if he felt it would make it flow better. Jimmy has said that himself. Jimmy also acknowledged that Artists like Glen do have a great ear for what is good within a song etc and sometimes there input into his work is sometimes welcomed. I think the main trouble is when he is not consulted about it. As Jimmy has admitted many times he is stubborn and protective of his material.
Jimmy didn't even like Glen adding the extra lines to Wichita Lineman in his show, But Glen would always do as he saw fit. In fact Glen would have disagreements with the producers of his songs when working on albums. I recall Glen didn't like the gap left in "If you go away" and made the point it was his name going on the product. So I guess each of them were as stubborn as each other.
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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Randy » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:15 am

So if anyone (Jimmy?) ....... Was reading your post Cowpoke and just thinking how sad it is that the Jimmy Webb's and Glen Campbell's never participated here? Who knows 100 years from now their responses might still be right here
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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Cowpoke » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:41 pm

Mike, lots of interesting points you bring up. I agree that also the use of contrasting images within a line points to Jimmy as the author of those changes.

There is also another piece of "evidence" that points in the same direction. Have you noticed how Jimmy always sticks to his own original version of the lyrics when he performs a song made famous by Glen? The most famous example of course being the line that Glen changed in "Phoenix" that drove Jimmy nearly crazy: "Time and time I tried to tell her so" instead of Jimmy's original "Time and time AGAIN I tried to tell her so". When Jimmy and Glen recorded that song as a duet in 2009 I was really curious to hear how they would solve that issue. Well Jimmy came up with a solution. In that last verse they trade lines and Jimmy (not by coincidence I'm sure) got precisely that line, singing "time and time AGAIN I tried to tell her so" while Glen sang the lines before and after it. So there Jimmy finally got what he wanted: a version of Phoenix with Glen singing and the right lyrics! Btw, I bet that recording was an emotional one for Jimmy, on many levels.

Another example is "Before I SEE your seabirds flying in the sun" instead of "Before I WATCH your seabirds flying in the sun". The fact that Jimmy to this day still sings "SEE" like Don Ho does also in the first recorded version, tells me that the change from "SEE" to "WATCH" was probably made by Glen. However, the changed second verse (Galveston, oh Galveston, I still hear your sea waves crashing - While I watch the cannons flashing
- I clean my gun and dream of Galveston) is also what Jimmy sings, indicating that these are his own lyrics, not some (brilliant) change made by someone else.

Now the question remains: where do the lyrics as heard in Do Ho's version come from? My guess is that Jimmy also wrote those lyrics, as an earlier version of the song. I cannot imagine Don Ho or anyone else changing the better lyrics from Glen's version into the clearly lesser lyrics in Do Ho's version.

The fact that part of those lyrics are not as well written as the later version makes sense when you realize that Jimmy wrote "Galveston" in 1964 when he was 17 or 18 years old. If he changed them in 1968/1969 for Glen, the improvement of the lyrics could simply be a reflection of his increased songwriting skills at the "old" age of 22! :)

Of course, none of this I can prove. So if anyone (Jimmy?) has a better explanation I would gladly hear it! :)
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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Mike Joyce » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:59 am

I think that is right Dee, I think Jimmy perhaps has now softened his take on this point. Of course now he has Kanye West to direct his anger at. On the point about the lyric changes. I like you Cowpoke have the original score sheet of the song and they are as Glen sings them. Personally, I think Jimmy wrote those lyrics ( I have no proof of course) but reading them as show by your link it just has the feel of the way Jimmy liked to use contrasting or opposing ideas within a song. He talked about this recently in an interview on the BBC,When he mentioned the song "How quickly we forget" .
He said he liked writing the line "You turn away in SLOW motion, How QUICKLY we forget.
The line I clean my gun and dream of Galveston has the same element inasmuch the gun is a representation of his current violent situation contrasted with the longing to be in the peaceful setting of Galveston. The other sipler piont is of course the rhyming of Galveston with gun works within the lyric as does "She was twenyONE, when I left GalvesTON.
It's a tool Jimmy is very familiar with and as you say Cowpoke, He is a master at it.
To be honest Don Hoe's lyrics have the feel of a first draft and lacks the definite feel of a loving relationship that Glen's version portrays. With Glen's version you understand his longing to be back with a girl he loves, but with Don's he appears to be unsure whether she has any feelings for him at all. So the story is very weak in that respect, and just seems to imply he is just fed up of being in the war. Glen's love for the girl IS the song.
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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Dee » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:51 am

P.S. Yes, great post, Mike! The personal story in this song is key. You are right; it's this story of humanity that appealed to Glen. Great insight.

About Jimmy's annoyance with Glen changing the tempo of Galveston to more of a marching tempo as well as "Campbellizing" this ballad into a "pop song: did either of you guys (Cowpoke & Mike) notice that when JW told this story during his Glen Campbell tribute show (The Glen Campbell Years) in London, he told it with a sense of humor and love? No longer irked, JW just laughs because Glen's changes were just, well, something that his good friend would do and now perhaps JW accepts it as part of what makes Glen admirable.

Or perhaps I am sentimentalizing how I heard Jimmy tell this story at the tribute show in June 2015?
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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Dee » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:33 am

Outstanding example, Cowpoke. Thanks so much for posting it!
I had forgotten about the changes in Galveston's lyrics. How could I forgotten that matter after we had presented the question about the differences in lyrics to Jimmy Webb?

In my mind, "I'd go home if they would let me / Put down this gun ..." sounds passive like a pacifist. If they'll let me, I'll put it down. I don't want to fight this war; I don't want to be here. Or perhaps he is just a man who deeply wants to return home to Galveston and his girl.

"I clean my gun" sounds like a soldier preparing to fight the fight, but at the same time dreaming of Galveston to pass the time.

I agree...the change in lyrics and Jimmy's economy in words are brilliant.

A recent comment left by a Jim Mumford on the "Gentle On My Mind" video I have posted on my YouTube channel really touched me, and I couldn't help but wonder if "Galveston" was one of the songs that helped this soldier when he was in Vietnam ("VN") many years ago:

Jim commented:
glen songs helped me keep my sanity when serving in VN for 19 months I concentrated on his stories in each song, it helped me look Forward to coming home and I am home

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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Cowpoke » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:54 pm

The title of this review, "I Clean My Gun and Dream of Galveston", which of course is also a line from the JW song, does make a point in my mind that JW perhaps linked those two opposing phrases for a reason. What was JW really saying here? Why link cleaning one's gun (in some country far away) and dreaming of Galveston (the homeland) together? Was this a form of protest? Or "simply" an expression of longing?


Well Dee as you know better than most, "I Clean My Gun and Dream of Galveston" from the second verse wasn't in the first released version of the song. (For those who are interested, here's a post about this subject from the forum archives: glensfanforum/64.224.195.170/discus/messages/5/1358297ea.html?1292715609)

The second verse as sung by Don Ho in 1968 went like this:

Galveston oh Galveston wonder if she could forget me
I'd go home if they would let me
Put down this gun and go to Galveston

In the version Glen released in 1969 the second verse was of course:

Galveston, oh Galveston, I still hear your sea waves crashing
While I watch the cannons flashing
I clean my gun and dream of Galveston

Maybe the change (we don't know who made it, probably Jimmy, because of the sheer quality of that second version) had to do with the fact that the first version seems to almost advocate desertion (put down the gun and go home). The second version wonderfully combines the thoughts of a soldier longing for home WHILE doing his duty. The fact that Jimmy is able convey this so powerfully in just a short three lined verse is evidence of his mastery.
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Re: Would Glen have supported Pres. Donald Trump?

Postby Cowpoke » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:40 pm

Wow Mike great post!

Whatever peoples views about war, these songs try to tell a personal story of one man's experience in the bigger story of the conflict.

That's exactly what Glen's position was when it came to songs about war, it's all about the personal story. The fear to die, the longing for home.

His annoyance with Glen, changing the arrangement also went deep with Jimmy. He has told that story every time he discusses the song. And yet I feel Jimmy has been unfair on this point, as even the way Glen performed it, still let the listener feel the agony of the soldier wanting to go home. It made the song more dramatic but held on to the poignancy of the situation and Glen's vocals conveyed the heartbreak.

That's what I wanted to say, but you said it better!
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