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Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:24 am
by jay
"we may never know exactly how things transpired"

Look at the story behind Glen's first guitar. Glen said it was a Sears guitar. Glen's dad said it was a Sears guitar. Glen's brother said it was a Sears guitar.

But the only match to the tangible evidence we have of Glens 1st guitar indicates it came from Montgomery Ward. Lore would have it otherwise. When the particulars of his first guitar became important, too much time had passed on something that was far from being important at the time.

I think that attempting to forensically figure out what happened at the time with Guess I'm Dumb, is massively cool. Because in doing so, we get to look at what is documented and then try to ascertain what may have happened.

Vetting conjecture is extremely interesting.

The complete songwriting list of ‘Wichita Lineman’ Glen Camp

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:47 pm
by jeremylr
Merry Christmas everybody.....we're getting far beyond the scope of the songwriting feature story, but here is Beach Boys official sessionographer Craig Slowinski's feedback pertaining to "Guess I'm Dumb"...we may never know exactly how things transpired.....

Craig Slowinski: "I located the AFM sheet for 'Guess I'm Dumb'--no indication of the intended artist. I think the fact that it sounds SO different from the other 'Today!' album tracks--even those on Side Two--in terms of structure and instrumentation has led many to conclude it likely was not intended for the Beach Boys--but on the other hand, if it was intended for Glen Campbell all along, why wait 5 or 6 months to add his vocal? And, in Brian's 1991 "autobiography", it is referred to as a 'Today!' outtake. And, come to think of it, 'In The Back Of My Mind' is pretty different from the other 'Today!' selections, too!"

Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:17 am
by Dee
Hey Jeremy, thank you for the GID session information/link!
I wish I could upload (legally) Glen's instrumental track that was released on The Beach Boys' "Made in California" box set for you and other fans to listen to. (It may be on YT by now.)

Thanks for the changes, and I hope I didn't come across as simply an insulted fan. :)

From the original research (multiple sources, can source later) I had done a few years ago about Brian, Glen, and "Guess I'm Dumb", this is the essence of what apparently occurred:

The Boys had refused to record the vocals to "Guess I'm Dumb". They disliked the song for all its "dumb" references/working title/title. (Your Keith Badman alluded to their refusal/dislike when he used the word "declined" in his book.)
The group well knew they were America's answer to The Beatles. They weren't about to record a song with the title/lyrics Guess I'm Dumb.
Their refusal to record it only added more fuel to building tension in the group. In Ken Burke's book (sourced below), he writes that "occasionally, the hired hand (Glen Campbell) would be placed in the middle of the power struggles between (Brian) Wilson and Mike Love, as was the case with the session for 'Guess I'm Dumb.'"

So, here's Brian with a song he loved (the stirring of Pet Sounds), one he had invested in artistically and financially (studio time, session musicians), and his group "declines" to record it.

In Glen Campbell's words in a book written by Ken Burke in 2004: "Well, I played on the track ('Guess I'm Dumb') for Brian and the Beach Boys, and the guys didn't want to do it. They didn't want to do 'Guess I'm Dumb'", Campbell exclaims, astonished. "So Brian says, 'Glen you want to sing it?' I said, 'Sure I do.' Because I kind of liked it. It was a great track and the guys already had some background on it." (Burke, Ken [2004]. Country Music Changed My Life: Tales of Tough Times and Triumph from Country's Legends. Chicago, Ill.: Chicago Review Press. p. 34.)

Does Glen's explanation mention anything about "a gift"? "a reward"? "a token of appreciation"? No.

Had Brian written this song for Glen Campbell, a session musician, in 1964? No.

Based on Glen's explanation, I can't support the erroneous information about a "gift", "present", "reward", "token", etc. that permeates the web.

Glen would have been dumb to refuse an opportunity to record the band-rejected song. He recognized the genius of Brian Wilson long before many others in the music business recognized it.
He (and probably Brian) foresaw Glen's recording of Guess I'm Dumb as a springboard (not a jump start since Glen had already had some charting success prior to June 1965) for his solo career.

Brian produced the record--and has presumably made $ on it.
Brian and the song's co-writer received and are still receiving royalties on the song.
Glen (imo) gave Brian a gift, one that is still paying Brian dividends.

After Glen passed away, Brian Wilson was asked in a print interview about Glen's contributions to the BBs.
(I can't find this article but will source it when I locate it.)
If I remember correctly, Brian did not acknowledge Glen's subbing for him in late 1964 and part of 1965.
Instead, he recalled that Glen had recorded one of his songs (Guess I'm Dumb).
Isn't it interesting that it is Glen's recording of GID that has long remained "gentle on (Brian Wilson's) mind"?

(c) 2017 D. Zink, Glen Campbell Forums

Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:28 am
by jay
All I can say is "Thank God" Glen went on to find JW.

Guess I´m Dumb has a great story behind it. Truly very interesting. But Glen's version [...]! Maybe this is the point in time that he became comfortable finding tunes that fit him....that sounded good to him... By finding Jimmy Webb, Glen found songs that fit his Arkansas persona and West Coast life ... which ended up making him a crossover pioneer.

I can just hear his dad saying to his mom, after listening to GID..."What the [...] is that boy singing".

JMO...your mileage may vary.

Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:02 pm
by jeremylr
Here's how I reworded the sentence in question in the songwriting story, Dee. "After Brian Wilson endured a nervous breakdown and refocused his energy on studio production, Campbell replaced him on live dates until the microphone-adjusting Bruce 'Disney Girls' Johnston was permanently drafted. Tracked during a 'Today!' session in October 1964 at Western Recorders, the Wilson co-composed and produced 'Guess I’m Dumb' was given to Campbell as a token of gratitude. Unleashed as an A-side featuring the Beach Boys on backing vocals, the gorgeously orchestrated sunshine pop ballad shockingly failed to muster any chart impact."

Sorry that you feel I am being condescending in my word choice about Glen. I stand by what I wrote. As a concession, I did forward the paragraph to a Beach Boys aficionado who has access to the band's session logs and has contributed to Beach Boys reissues for Capitol / Brother Records to see if all of my ducks are in a row and if the Badman source got things right. ... 93#page=42" onclick=";return false;

Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:51 am
by Dee
I appreciate the source information, Jeremy.
Badman's book is in my Beach Boys' library, for better, for worse.
You are likely aware of the controversies regarding it?
The errors?
The session contracts with SSNs reproduced in the book?

I am okay with the info on page 67. (There were more sessions, but not with Glen, right?)

Page 86, not so much: "the goodwill gesture" is a stretch. Also, "goodwill" is an odd word choice.
Glen being "rewarded"? Another odd choice of word and also condescending toward Glen.
Why does the misconception of "gift" persist?
Well, Badman's book is one reason, imo. :)

Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:14 am
by jeremylr
An embedded link to the Glen Campbell forums is available under the "Turn Around, Look at Me" song listing. Perhaps a separate thread should be devoted to Glen's songwriting feature story as I'm worried that it will get lost in this photo query thread. I am very grateful for all of the detective work in unearthing the USA Today / Dan MacMedan-shot July 27, 2011 photo of Glen. I don't think I would have ever found the original source. I've never been able to locate any list of Glen or Rick Nelson's songwriting discography online which prompted both stories. I hope the article will prompt further discussion.....comments are welcome on the Medium article itself to educate non-forum reading members. If we unearth all of the songs that Glen wrote @ American Music that may expand and grow unwieldy beyond the original scope of my story--to chronicle every song Glen wrote and also recorded--but then again, it might not be a bad idea to list the songs that Glen just wrote, too. I will give it some thought.

Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:54 pm
by jeremylr
From Keith Badman's "The Beach Boys: The Definitive Diary of America's Greatest Band on Stage and in the Studio"

Page 67......October 14, 1964......"Western Recorders studio Hollywood, CA 10:30 p.m.--1:30 a.m. Continuing with work on the Today! album, Brian produces an instrumental tracking session for Guess I'm Dumb." Glen was present on guitar @ this session.

Page 86.........March 8, 1965....."As a goodwill gesture for his playing on the recent Beach Boys concerts, Glen Campbell is rewarded with a Brian-produced recording at Western. During today's three-hour session, Campbell's vocals are overdubbed onto the resurrected, unused Guess I'm Dumb tracking tape recorded on October 14, 1964. The Honeys--Marilyn, Ginger, and Diane--provide backing vocals. The recording was up for consideration for The Beach Boys Today! album, but will now be used for the A-side of Campbell's next single, his tenth for Capitol, which is issued on June 7.

Brian Wilson co-wrote "Guess I'm Dumb" with Russ Titelman.

Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:57 pm
by Dee
Jeremy, I should add that this information in your songs article is not factually correct or perhaps I am misunderstanding the sentence?
Wilson composed and produced “Guess I’m Dumb” as a token of gratitude for his buddy during the Today! sessions in October 1964.
I would be interested in learning the source for this info. Thanks!

Re: Glen Campbell circa 2012 photo details query

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:40 pm
by Dee
Hi Jeremy,
I apologize for leaking your article before it was ready for prime time.
It came to me via a g**gle news alert.
Perhaps I can make up the "leak" by sharing this information (that Jay confirmed):

Date: July 27, 2011
Location: Glen Campbell's residence in Malibu, CA
Photo Credit: Dan MacMedan
Collection: Contour By Getty Images
URL:" onclick=";return false;

Dan shot this photo (series) for a feature article in USA Today: ... mers_n.htm" onclick=";return false;

It was a challenge to source it because the photo in question has apparently never been released.

Regarding "When Am I Gonna Be Loved", I don't know for certain whether Glen cut this song. It is not on any of his studio albums. Perhaps another member will be able to answer this question.

Thanks for adding "Turn Around, Look at Me" to your GC songwriting list! We are glad Glen Campbell Forums' posts were a contributing factor to your decision to include it in your listing and trust you will respectfully source "Glen Campbell Forums On The Net" (" onclick=";return false;) in your article for specific information you obtained here.

The songwriting credit(s) was a source of great contention for Glen, of course, and has been much discussed by fans for years!

I can't even begin to make a guess about how many songs (and instrumentals) Glen penned or co-wrote. There are only about five living fans in the world who could answer this question -- based not only on their respective research (including asking Glen) but also from the actual recordings they have in their personal collections. (Only one of these 5 or so fans is on facebook--"H.W.") Perhaps the discographers here on the Forums can help to answer this question for you. It would be interesting to learn this number (understanding that there are unknown songs that have disappeared into obscurity).

Glen and Jerry Fuller co-wrote many songs together in addition to "Can't You See I'm Trying" recorded by The Knickerbockers first, right?

Jeremy, I have been thinking about your article on Medium a lot today. IMO, it is groundbreaking because you have publicly highlighted another tremendous talent of Glen Campbell's that I feel has been overlooked or underappreciated. You have put a stake in the ground by identifying 35 of Glen's penned/co-written songs, a solid core list.